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	<title>
	Comments on: Delta tunnel is a big drain compared to bullet train	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 05:51:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>
		By: Wayne Lusvardi		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21304</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Lusvardi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 05:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21304</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Laer
I can&#039;t speak for Dr. Michaels.  But I understand that he used $300/acre foot for his water unit price. The actual number used however is the net benefit unit price of $45/acre foot.  To clarify that would be the price for raw water - untreated and without transport costs (I believe).  If the net price per acre foot is much higher then Dr. Michaels&#039; study might be different as to its conclusions.  

Numbers are less important than assumptions.  And none of these cost/benefit studies disclose their assumptions even though no real estate appraiser could get away with that without losing their license. 

The big story with Dr. Michaels&#039; cost-benefit study is that no infrastructure project can be built in California anymore except for the highest cost alternative.  Environmental lawsuits and unions interests have made it so.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laer<br />
I can&#8217;t speak for Dr. Michaels.  But I understand that he used $300/acre foot for his water unit price. The actual number used however is the net benefit unit price of $45/acre foot.  To clarify that would be the price for raw water &#8211; untreated and without transport costs (I believe).  If the net price per acre foot is much higher then Dr. Michaels&#8217; study might be different as to its conclusions.  </p>
<p>Numbers are less important than assumptions.  And none of these cost/benefit studies disclose their assumptions even though no real estate appraiser could get away with that without losing their license. </p>
<p>The big story with Dr. Michaels&#8217; cost-benefit study is that no infrastructure project can be built in California anymore except for the highest cost alternative.  Environmental lawsuits and unions interests have made it so.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Bass		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21303</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Bass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21303</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Where did this &quot;doing nothing&quot; read come from? The source of Wayne&#039;s piece here, Jeff Michael&#039;s piece, does not propose doing nothing. He asks about the need for a &quot;$13 billion tunnel.&quot; And if Wayne proposes that doing nothing is Michael&#039;s idea, it is purely rhetorical. 

Michael is simply suggesting that the envirnomental benefits of a through-Delta conveyance system are just as legitimate, absent clear science of a greater environmental benefit via a canal or tunnel, as any other means of conveyance. And vastly less expensive. 

Michael goes to some length to say that he is open to the possibility of a canal or tunnel if certain criteria are met, and writes about the difficulty of getting Delta landowners to give up land to build big, habitat-sustaining setback levees if the option of the vastly less expensvie throu-Delta conveyance option is implemented.

I suppose Mr Michael made it confusing when he suggested doing nothing instead of saying no canal or tunnel. It&#039;s right there, in the title to the piece. That&#039;s my read of his thoughts anyway.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where did this &#8220;doing nothing&#8221; read come from? The source of Wayne&#8217;s piece here, Jeff Michael&#8217;s piece, does not propose doing nothing. He asks about the need for a &#8220;$13 billion tunnel.&#8221; And if Wayne proposes that doing nothing is Michael&#8217;s idea, it is purely rhetorical. </p>
<p>Michael is simply suggesting that the envirnomental benefits of a through-Delta conveyance system are just as legitimate, absent clear science of a greater environmental benefit via a canal or tunnel, as any other means of conveyance. And vastly less expensive. </p>
<p>Michael goes to some length to say that he is open to the possibility of a canal or tunnel if certain criteria are met, and writes about the difficulty of getting Delta landowners to give up land to build big, habitat-sustaining setback levees if the option of the vastly less expensvie throu-Delta conveyance option is implemented.</p>
<p>I suppose Mr Michael made it confusing when he suggested doing nothing instead of saying no canal or tunnel. It&#8217;s right there, in the title to the piece. That&#8217;s my read of his thoughts anyway.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Dutra		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21302</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Dutra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 00:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21302</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Wade has now introduced the trump card of Big Ag&#039;s fear mongering campaign. &quot;If we don&#039;t get the water, we can&#039;t grow your food&quot;!  Perhaps he can explain how the 1/3rd of agricultural product originated in California which gets exported plays in to this scenario. Maybe he could explain that his clients, such as the Westlands Water District, are only supposed to receive &quot;excess water&quot; after the Metropolitan Water District in LA gets their fill. No, better to pretend that the 25 million Californians in Southern CA which get their drinking water from the system are on an equal footing with his clients.

Agriculture uses 80% of the water used by humans in CA, but bears a disproportionately small portion of the cost of said water.  For all of this, we get a farm economy which provides only 2% of our Gross State Product.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Wade has now introduced the trump card of Big Ag&#8217;s fear mongering campaign. &#8220;If we don&#8217;t get the water, we can&#8217;t grow your food&#8221;!  Perhaps he can explain how the 1/3rd of agricultural product originated in California which gets exported plays in to this scenario. Maybe he could explain that his clients, such as the Westlands Water District, are only supposed to receive &#8220;excess water&#8221; after the Metropolitan Water District in LA gets their fill. No, better to pretend that the 25 million Californians in Southern CA which get their drinking water from the system are on an equal footing with his clients.</p>
<p>Agriculture uses 80% of the water used by humans in CA, but bears a disproportionately small portion of the cost of said water.  For all of this, we get a farm economy which provides only 2% of our Gross State Product.</p>
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		<title>
		By: gotaminit		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21301</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gotaminit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21301</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How many water agencies does it take to get water from the delta to socal?
Can&#039;t we merege the 400 plus agencies and lower administrative costs (pensions).  The San Gabriel Valley aquafier, the size of Lake Tahoe, needs
to be cleaned up and super fund dollars accounted for the last 20 years.  so cal needs to work on it&#039;s cleanup of underground storage.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many water agencies does it take to get water from the delta to socal?<br />
Can&#8217;t we merege the 400 plus agencies and lower administrative costs (pensions).  The San Gabriel Valley aquafier, the size of Lake Tahoe, needs<br />
to be cleaned up and super fund dollars accounted for the last 20 years.  so cal needs to work on it&#8217;s cleanup of underground storage.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Wade		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21300</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Wade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21300</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What happens if nothing is done to secure a reliable supply of water through the Delta and an improved ecosystem for the estuary? I suggest the results could be far reaching. Consider: The water that flows through the Delta reaches 25 million Californians to support their lifestyles and businesses. Farmers use water that flows through the Delta to grow a safe and affordable supply of food, which allows families to not rely on imported foods.
 
Doing nothing, which seems to be where this article is pointing, does more harm than good. California only has a half-year of water storage available and that supply quickly becomes stretched during years of drought. This year is a good example. Not much rain and snow has fallen to replenish our supplies. As a result, much of the carryover supply from last year has already been allocated and farmers are only receiving 40 and 65 percent of their water supply from State and federal sources.
 
Doing nothing means California&#039;s future water supply will continue to be unreliable. Not only can food production drop, on-farm jobs will dwindle. Too often water users have been forced into courtrooms to battle for their water. This scenario could repeat itself if a reliable water supply is not secured. Is this really where we want to go?

Mike Wade
California Farm Water Coalition]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What happens if nothing is done to secure a reliable supply of water through the Delta and an improved ecosystem for the estuary? I suggest the results could be far reaching. Consider: The water that flows through the Delta reaches 25 million Californians to support their lifestyles and businesses. Farmers use water that flows through the Delta to grow a safe and affordable supply of food, which allows families to not rely on imported foods.</p>
<p>Doing nothing, which seems to be where this article is pointing, does more harm than good. California only has a half-year of water storage available and that supply quickly becomes stretched during years of drought. This year is a good example. Not much rain and snow has fallen to replenish our supplies. As a result, much of the carryover supply from last year has already been allocated and farmers are only receiving 40 and 65 percent of their water supply from State and federal sources.</p>
<p>Doing nothing means California&#8217;s future water supply will continue to be unreliable. Not only can food production drop, on-farm jobs will dwindle. Too often water users have been forced into courtrooms to battle for their water. This scenario could repeat itself if a reliable water supply is not secured. Is this really where we want to go?</p>
<p>Mike Wade<br />
California Farm Water Coalition</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Bass		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21299</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Bass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21299</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Not sure where your read &#039;fictional&#039; into Michael&#039;s piece, but happy to see your correction. Since it was never &#039;unclear&#039; that regulatory assurance wasn&#039;t a well-established legal mechanism for dealing with environmental regulation and not a mere product of Michael&#039;s imagination, I am not sure where that came from.

But on to the latter issue I have with your piece. While there seems to be a confusion over what is meant by &quot;conveyance,&quot; &quot;no-tunnel&quot; and &quot;no conveyance&quot; in Michael&#039;s piece, (all three terms he used) he is not saying don&#039;t convey water through the Delta to the pumps. He is is asking what exactly, does environmental mitigation buy? It buys assurance against liability, not proof of habitat health..

He is asking a very simple question: 

If regulatory assurance is the operative and binding legal mechanism here, what advantage does that mechanism gain by building a conveyance that either goes under or around the Delta? Why not just convey water as we do now, on the surface, with vastly increased habitat?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure where your read &#8216;fictional&#8217; into Michael&#8217;s piece, but happy to see your correction. Since it was never &#8216;unclear&#8217; that regulatory assurance wasn&#8217;t a well-established legal mechanism for dealing with environmental regulation and not a mere product of Michael&#8217;s imagination, I am not sure where that came from.</p>
<p>But on to the latter issue I have with your piece. While there seems to be a confusion over what is meant by &#8220;conveyance,&#8221; &#8220;no-tunnel&#8221; and &#8220;no conveyance&#8221; in Michael&#8217;s piece, (all three terms he used) he is not saying don&#8217;t convey water through the Delta to the pumps. He is is asking what exactly, does environmental mitigation buy? It buys assurance against liability, not proof of habitat health..</p>
<p>He is asking a very simple question: </p>
<p>If regulatory assurance is the operative and binding legal mechanism here, what advantage does that mechanism gain by building a conveyance that either goes under or around the Delta? Why not just convey water as we do now, on the surface, with vastly increased habitat?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Laer Pearce		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21298</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Laer Pearce]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21298</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would be very curious to see how Dr. Michaels came up with a $500 million net benefit number, the assumption upon which his analysis rests. The Southern California economy, worth billions a year, is dependent on imported water. The Colorado Basin is back in drought mode and Nevada, Arizona and Mexico are asserting their water rights, so we can&#039;t count on that water. The cost impact of a Delta collapse has been pegged at $20 billion to $40 billion. 

Michaels says demand is decreasing. Not really. Per captita demand is indeed decreasing, but the population is growing, albeit slowly. Demand is basically stuck where it&#039;s been for 20 years or so and once the last low-flush toiled is retrofitted, we&#039;ll have a hard time showing such dramatic conservation benefits.

The question to be asked isn&#039;t &quot;Should the project be built at all,&quot; but rather, &quot;What&#039;s going to happen to California if we don&#039;t build it?&quot; Or at least come up with a better alternative than anything I see here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be very curious to see how Dr. Michaels came up with a $500 million net benefit number, the assumption upon which his analysis rests. The Southern California economy, worth billions a year, is dependent on imported water. The Colorado Basin is back in drought mode and Nevada, Arizona and Mexico are asserting their water rights, so we can&#8217;t count on that water. The cost impact of a Delta collapse has been pegged at $20 billion to $40 billion. </p>
<p>Michaels says demand is decreasing. Not really. Per captita demand is indeed decreasing, but the population is growing, albeit slowly. Demand is basically stuck where it&#8217;s been for 20 years or so and once the last low-flush toiled is retrofitted, we&#8217;ll have a hard time showing such dramatic conservation benefits.</p>
<p>The question to be asked isn&#8217;t &#8220;Should the project be built at all,&#8221; but rather, &#8220;What&#8217;s going to happen to California if we don&#8217;t build it?&#8221; Or at least come up with a better alternative than anything I see here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wayne Lusvardi		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21297</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Lusvardi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21297</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dr. Jeff Michaels has clarified his definition of &quot;regulatory assurance&quot; in a separate email - here: 

I don’t say regulatory assurance is fictional (although it could be depending on the final BDCP).  It is real benefit for exporters, and a real negative for all the upstream users.  If the regulators say fish need more water or higher flows in the future that can’t come from the projects – it will have to come from the upstream folks or taxpayers will be on the hook to pay for even more compensating habitat projects.  That is a particularly crappy deal for taxpayers, who will have already paid $4 billion for the habitat projects that gave regulatory assurance to the exporters.
 
It IS interesting that it wasn’t in the original scope of work though.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Jeff Michaels has clarified his definition of &#8220;regulatory assurance&#8221; in a separate email &#8211; here: </p>
<p>I don’t say regulatory assurance is fictional (although it could be depending on the final BDCP).  It is real benefit for exporters, and a real negative for all the upstream users.  If the regulators say fish need more water or higher flows in the future that can’t come from the projects – it will have to come from the upstream folks or taxpayers will be on the hook to pay for even more compensating habitat projects.  That is a particularly crappy deal for taxpayers, who will have already paid $4 billion for the habitat projects that gave regulatory assurance to the exporters.</p>
<p>It IS interesting that it wasn’t in the original scope of work though.</p>
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		<title>
		By: nowsane		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21296</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nowsane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21296</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s try again!
Every time the subject of water comes up in the state, I&#039;m reminded of what author of Chapter 8, Water Options For the Blue Planet, Terry L Anderson, writes in The True State of the Planet, http://bit.ly/ItqjDn that among other things:
*Eliminating laws against water marketing and establishing private water rights would give consumers an incentive to use water more efficiently.
*Removing legal impediments to water markets would allow private firms to enter the water supply industry and take the burden off the public treasury.  Market forces could pare demand, boost supplies, reallocate water, and end the threat of water crises.

I highly recommend this book, not just for Chapter 8, for all 10 Chapters covering every imaginable environmental issue that our “Bible-thumping” Greenies care to bring up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s try again!<br />
Every time the subject of water comes up in the state, I&#8217;m reminded of what author of Chapter 8, Water Options For the Blue Planet, Terry L Anderson, writes in The True State of the Planet, <a href="http://bit.ly/ItqjDn" rel="nofollow ugc">http://bit.ly/ItqjDn</a> that among other things:<br />
*Eliminating laws against water marketing and establishing private water rights would give consumers an incentive to use water more efficiently.<br />
*Removing legal impediments to water markets would allow private firms to enter the water supply industry and take the burden off the public treasury.  Market forces could pare demand, boost supplies, reallocate water, and end the threat of water crises.</p>
<p>I highly recommend this book, not just for Chapter 8, for all 10 Chapters covering every imaginable environmental issue that our “Bible-thumping” Greenies care to bring up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: nowsane		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2012/07/12/delta-tunnel-is-a-big-drain-compared-to-bullet-train/#comment-21295</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nowsane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=30256#comment-21295</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Every time the subject of water comes up in the state, I&#039;m reminded of what author of Chapter 8, Water Options For the Blue Planet, Terry L Anderson, writes in The True State of the Planet, http://bit.ly/ItqjDn that among other things:
*Eliminating laws against water marketing and establishing private water rights would give consumers an incentive to use water more efficiently.
*Removing legal impediments to water markets would allow private firms to enter the water supply industry and take the burden off the public treasury.  Market forces could pare demand, who supplied, reallocate water, and end the threat of water crises.

I highly recommend this book, not just for Chapter 8, for all 10 Chapters covering every imaginable environmental issue that our &quot;Bible-thumping&quot;  Greenies care to bring up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time the subject of water comes up in the state, I&#8217;m reminded of what author of Chapter 8, Water Options For the Blue Planet, Terry L Anderson, writes in The True State of the Planet, <a href="http://bit.ly/ItqjDn" rel="nofollow ugc">http://bit.ly/ItqjDn</a> that among other things:<br />
*Eliminating laws against water marketing and establishing private water rights would give consumers an incentive to use water more efficiently.<br />
*Removing legal impediments to water markets would allow private firms to enter the water supply industry and take the burden off the public treasury.  Market forces could pare demand, who supplied, reallocate water, and end the threat of water crises.</p>
<p>I highly recommend this book, not just for Chapter 8, for all 10 Chapters covering every imaginable environmental issue that our &#8220;Bible-thumping&#8221;  Greenies care to bring up.</p>
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