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	Comments on: Water plan threatens taxpayers, environment	</title>
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	<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Nate		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10496</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10496</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Was the delta smelt used to bankrupt the farms along the path of the high speed rail?.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was the delta smelt used to bankrupt the farms along the path of the high speed rail?.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brown delta trout		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10495</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brown delta trout]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 05:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10495</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The commie fruit cakes want to tear out the dams too.  

Money for Klamath dam removal included in California water bill... ..http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2009/11/money_for_klamath_dam_removal.html  

Maybe when it dries up they can drive the bullet train thru it?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The commie fruit cakes want to tear out the dams too.  </p>
<p>Money for Klamath dam removal included in California water bill&#8230; ..<a href="http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2009/11/money_for_klamath_dam_removal.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2009/11/money_for_klamath_dam_removal.html</a>  </p>
<p>Maybe when it dries up they can drive the bullet train thru it?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Itachee		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10494</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Itachee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 00:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10494</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Greenhut
If you didn&#039;t intend to use the environmentalists salinity intrusion mantra to support your position you wouldn&#039;t, or should&#039;t, have brought it up. Facts are facts and using patently false positions of others to support your view is hardly unbiased. 

As to your &quot;rate payers&quot; are &quot;tax payers&quot; argument you are clearly trying to construct a straw man to CYA. The rate payers, especially in the Central Valley Project and most of the State Water Project know full well they are footing the vast majority of the bill. And here again, a little bit of research would show you that.

In closing you earlier asserted that I sound like a &quot;sour grapes subsidized water user&quot;. Again, shows your bias. In point of fact I am not now nor have I ever been a farmer of any other sort of so called &quot;subsidized water user&quot;. But if you want to talk honestly about subsidies you may want to research who pays for flood control benefits provided by the state and federal water projects, benefits that keep cities like Stockton, Sacramento and most of those in the delta from being hosed off the map. I&#039;ll help you out. The land owners in those and other cities up and down the state haven&#039;t paid a dime for it. And we could go down that same path with same findings talking about water quality benefits provided to in-delta land owners.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Greenhut<br />
If you didn&#8217;t intend to use the environmentalists salinity intrusion mantra to support your position you wouldn&#8217;t, or should&#8217;t, have brought it up. Facts are facts and using patently false positions of others to support your view is hardly unbiased. </p>
<p>As to your &#8220;rate payers&#8221; are &#8220;tax payers&#8221; argument you are clearly trying to construct a straw man to CYA. The rate payers, especially in the Central Valley Project and most of the State Water Project know full well they are footing the vast majority of the bill. And here again, a little bit of research would show you that.</p>
<p>In closing you earlier asserted that I sound like a &#8220;sour grapes subsidized water user&#8221;. Again, shows your bias. In point of fact I am not now nor have I ever been a farmer of any other sort of so called &#8220;subsidized water user&#8221;. But if you want to talk honestly about subsidies you may want to research who pays for flood control benefits provided by the state and federal water projects, benefits that keep cities like Stockton, Sacramento and most of those in the delta from being hosed off the map. I&#8217;ll help you out. The land owners in those and other cities up and down the state haven&#8217;t paid a dime for it. And we could go down that same path with same findings talking about water quality benefits provided to in-delta land owners.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steven Greenhut		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10493</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven Greenhut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10493</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The commenter&#039;s point -- that I should avoid writing about things in which I don&#039;t know the &quot;truth&quot; is downright silly. In the column, I wrote: &quot;Environmentalists also express concerns about the level of saltwater that moves inland from the Pacific Ocean.&quot; I am not judging the degree of intrusion, but am stating a fact -- environmentalists have used that problem to call for various solutions to the Delta situation. There is no question that ratepayers and taxpayers will pay for this project. Ratepayers, by the way, are taxpayers. And bonds are paid for by taxpayers. And federal tax dollars are paid for by taxpayers. And who actually believes the state government&#039;s initial projections?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The commenter&#8217;s point &#8212; that I should avoid writing about things in which I don&#8217;t know the &#8220;truth&#8221; is downright silly. In the column, I wrote: &#8220;Environmentalists also express concerns about the level of saltwater that moves inland from the Pacific Ocean.&#8221; I am not judging the degree of intrusion, but am stating a fact &#8212; environmentalists have used that problem to call for various solutions to the Delta situation. There is no question that ratepayers and taxpayers will pay for this project. Ratepayers, by the way, are taxpayers. And bonds are paid for by taxpayers. And federal tax dollars are paid for by taxpayers. And who actually believes the state government&#8217;s initial projections?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Itachee		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10492</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Itachee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10492</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Greenhut
I note that despite the Editor&#039;s Note that the &quot;correction has been made to the above text&quot; the two key sentences with which I took issue, and provided sources for the actual data, have not been changed nor beeb deleted. Further the link, apparently provided by you, only serves to further reinforce, as you openly state, your bias. I feel quite let down by CalWatchDog for allowing your open, blatantly biased, factually false commentary.

I would suggest that in the future you avoid commentary regarding facts about which you &quot;...:don&#039;t know the truth...&quot; which are many. That or do your research to know what the facts are before spouting off.

In closing I would hope that CalWatchDog would monitor your writings with some fact checking of your writings so as to preserve its integrity and reputation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Greenhut<br />
I note that despite the Editor&#8217;s Note that the &#8220;correction has been made to the above text&#8221; the two key sentences with which I took issue, and provided sources for the actual data, have not been changed nor beeb deleted. Further the link, apparently provided by you, only serves to further reinforce, as you openly state, your bias. I feel quite let down by CalWatchDog for allowing your open, blatantly biased, factually false commentary.</p>
<p>I would suggest that in the future you avoid commentary regarding facts about which you &#8220;&#8230;:don&#8217;t know the truth&#8230;&#8221; which are many. That or do your research to know what the facts are before spouting off.</p>
<p>In closing I would hope that CalWatchDog would monitor your writings with some fact checking of your writings so as to preserve its integrity and reputation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wayne Lusvardi		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10491</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Lusvardi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10491</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[California has spent $150 million on environmental studies and I still don&#039;t think all the consequences of the Delta Plan are knowable.  History teaches that today&#039;s &quot;solution&quot; is tomorrow&#039;s &quot;problem.&quot;  There probably won&#039;t be a solution but tradeoffs.  

California has no choice but to re-engineer the Delta because Southern California has lost the portion of its Colorado River water that it was borrowing from Arizona for several decades.  Southern Cal used to get two thirds of its water from the Colorado River and one third from the Delta; now those percentages are reversed. 

The Delta farmers who have access to free water without any water rights will likely be losers.  If the Delta can be re-engineered to bring more cold freshwater into the system then freshwater fish may thrive.  

To clarify the comment above about costs: 
There are co-equal goals in the Delta Plan of 1) ecosystem rehabilitation and 2) greater reliability of water supply 

Greater water supply reliability will be furthered by the Delta Tunnels but that will be paid for by a combination of sources including state, Federal, Central Valley farmers, and So. Cal water districts.  Northern Cal is apparently does not have to pay for tunnels.  Northern Californians are not &quot;stakeholders&quot; in the tunnels because they aren&#039;t paying for them. 

The ecosystem rehab however is tentatively planned to be financed by a general obligation bond to be paid by all ratepayers who get State Water Project water; or by all taxpayers in the state.  The Delta Stewardship Council is releasing its financing plan for ecosystem rehab on April 22.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>California has spent $150 million on environmental studies and I still don&#8217;t think all the consequences of the Delta Plan are knowable.  History teaches that today&#8217;s &#8220;solution&#8221; is tomorrow&#8217;s &#8220;problem.&#8221;  There probably won&#8217;t be a solution but tradeoffs.  </p>
<p>California has no choice but to re-engineer the Delta because Southern California has lost the portion of its Colorado River water that it was borrowing from Arizona for several decades.  Southern Cal used to get two thirds of its water from the Colorado River and one third from the Delta; now those percentages are reversed. </p>
<p>The Delta farmers who have access to free water without any water rights will likely be losers.  If the Delta can be re-engineered to bring more cold freshwater into the system then freshwater fish may thrive.  </p>
<p>To clarify the comment above about costs:<br />
There are co-equal goals in the Delta Plan of 1) ecosystem rehabilitation and 2) greater reliability of water supply </p>
<p>Greater water supply reliability will be furthered by the Delta Tunnels but that will be paid for by a combination of sources including state, Federal, Central Valley farmers, and So. Cal water districts.  Northern Cal is apparently does not have to pay for tunnels.  Northern Californians are not &#8220;stakeholders&#8221; in the tunnels because they aren&#8217;t paying for them. </p>
<p>The ecosystem rehab however is tentatively planned to be financed by a general obligation bond to be paid by all ratepayers who get State Water Project water; or by all taxpayers in the state.  The Delta Stewardship Council is releasing its financing plan for ecosystem rehab on April 22.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CalWatchdog		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10490</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CalWatchdog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10490</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Editor&#039;s note: Steven Greenhut replies to Itachee; the correction has been made to the above text:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

One correction: Millions of fish are killed but not millions of smelt:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/07/22/18685707.php
 
Sounds like the sour grapes of a subsidized water user.
 
The project will be financed on the backs of ratepayers and depends on bonds and federal money, so yes taxpayers will foot the bill.
 
I don&#039;t know the truth of the salt intrusion, but environmentalists talk about that incessantly and it is discussed throughout the documents promoting this project. Duh. Everyone talks about salt intrusion and the Delta -- it&#039;s one of the big justifications for the whole ecological portion of the project.
 
And of course I&#039;m biased. It&#039;s a column and I opposed the enormous costs and destruction of the Delta so that people can enjoy subsidized water.

-- Steven Greenhut]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em><strong>Editor&#8217;s note: Steven Greenhut replies to Itachee; the correction has been made to the above text:</strong></em></p>
<p>One correction: Millions of fish are killed but not millions of smelt:<br />
<a href="http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/07/22/18685707.php" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/07/22/18685707.php</a></p>
<p>Sounds like the sour grapes of a subsidized water user.</p>
<p>The project will be financed on the backs of ratepayers and depends on bonds and federal money, so yes taxpayers will foot the bill.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the truth of the salt intrusion, but environmentalists talk about that incessantly and it is discussed throughout the documents promoting this project. Duh. Everyone talks about salt intrusion and the Delta &#8212; it&#8217;s one of the big justifications for the whole ecological portion of the project.</p>
<p>And of course I&#8217;m biased. It&#8217;s a column and I opposed the enormous costs and destruction of the Delta so that people can enjoy subsidized water.</p>
<p>&#8212; Steven Greenhut</p>
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		<title>
		By: Itachee		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10489</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Itachee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10489</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Greenhut your article clearly demonstrates your bias. You state: &quot;Millions of smelt are killed each year as they get caught in the giant pumps near Tracy, near the south end of the Delta.&quot; 
&lt;strong&gt;
&lt;em&gt;[Editor&#039;s note: Itachee correctly quoted the original text. Due to his notification, we corrected the text to read, &quot;Millions of fish.&quot;]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;

That is patently false and the data is readily available from both DWR and USBR web sites. For example, during the month of March 2013 the Total take (loss) of delta smelt at the delta export pumps was 22 fish. That will the reductions in delta pumping intended to reduce smelt take was a total of 180,000 acre-feet. To put that in perspective the average annual water use of the City of Sacramento is a bit less than 150,000 acre-feet.

You then go on, in the very next sentence, to tacitly accept and support the equally false premise: &quot;Environmentalists also express concerns about the level of saltwater that moves inland from the Pacific Ocean.&quot; That saltwater intrusion is today vastly less than before the water projects were built is documented with maps in the DWR Delta Atlas, water quality chapter available online with a simple Google search.

Finally, the basic premise of your article is that the cost of delta restoration and solving our state&#039;s delta export water supply problem will be borne by tax payers. Fact is, and it is widely known and documented, that the vast majority of the cost will be borne by delta export water users. 

In closing it is disheartening the Calwatchdog would carry such a blatantly biased, factually groundless article.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Greenhut your article clearly demonstrates your bias. You state: &#8220;Millions of smelt are killed each year as they get caught in the giant pumps near Tracy, near the south end of the Delta.&#8221;<br />
<strong><br />
<em>[Editor&#8217;s note: Itachee correctly quoted the original text. Due to his notification, we corrected the text to read, &#8220;Millions of fish.&#8221;]</em></strong></p>
<p>That is patently false and the data is readily available from both DWR and USBR web sites. For example, during the month of March 2013 the Total take (loss) of delta smelt at the delta export pumps was 22 fish. That will the reductions in delta pumping intended to reduce smelt take was a total of 180,000 acre-feet. To put that in perspective the average annual water use of the City of Sacramento is a bit less than 150,000 acre-feet.</p>
<p>You then go on, in the very next sentence, to tacitly accept and support the equally false premise: &#8220;Environmentalists also express concerns about the level of saltwater that moves inland from the Pacific Ocean.&#8221; That saltwater intrusion is today vastly less than before the water projects were built is documented with maps in the DWR Delta Atlas, water quality chapter available online with a simple Google search.</p>
<p>Finally, the basic premise of your article is that the cost of delta restoration and solving our state&#8217;s delta export water supply problem will be borne by tax payers. Fact is, and it is widely known and documented, that the vast majority of the cost will be borne by delta export water users. </p>
<p>In closing it is disheartening the Calwatchdog would carry such a blatantly biased, factually groundless article.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brown delta trout		</title>
		<link>https://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/14/water-plan-threatens-taxpayers-environment/#comment-10488</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brown delta trout]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calwatchdog.com/?p=40980#comment-10488</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Communist always destroy the things from the old order, they are symbols of capitalism.  If you look at the history of communist countries, only one (China) is more prosperous after the destruction because they switched to free trade.  It&#039;s more about pride than function.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Communist always destroy the things from the old order, they are symbols of capitalism.  If you look at the history of communist countries, only one (China) is more prosperous after the destruction because they switched to free trade.  It&#8217;s more about pride than function.</p>
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