CA take note: Detroit bankruptcy could slash pensions 90%

Devil's Night Detroit

Detroit declared bankruptcy today. For California, here are the takeaways from the Detroit News report:

“A bankruptcy judge could trump the state constitution by slashing retiree pensions, ripping up contracts and paying creditors roughly a dime on the dollar for unsecured claims worth $11.45 billion.”

That’s because the bankruptcy will be heard in a federal bankruptcy court. The California Constitution has similar clauses. California’s pension funds insist that, no matter what, the pensions are sacrosanct; that state law trumps federal bankruptcy law. The Detroit bankruptcy could provide an answer.

Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr…

“proposed paying most of the money owed to secured creditors while pension funds, unions and unsecured bondholders would receive, in some cases, 10 cents on the dollar.”

That’s right: 10 percent. Which means the funds themselves effectively would become insolvent, and pensioners would not get paid.

As I’ve written before, about 30 years ago the same thing happened to Detroit’s neighboring city of Highland Park. Bankruptcy led to the pensions being entirely canceled. When there’s no money, there’s no money.

“The bankruptcy filing comes as an Ingham County judge is preparing Monday to hear arguments from retirees seeking to stop the bankruptcy filing, which produced an automatic stay of all pending litigation and capped a month of intense talks between Orr’s team and creditors, which largely have failed to restructure as much as $20 billion in debt and long-term liabilities.

“News of an imminent filing prompted lawyers for the city’s pension funds to request an emergency hearing this afternoon in Ingham County Circuit Court to block a bankruptcy authorization.”

It’s hard to see how a state court could trump a federal bankruptcy court. Federal bankruptcy law is long established and is one of the few parts of the federal government that actually works fairly well.

“Instead of paying creditors in full, Orr would use $1.25 billion over the next decade to buy police cars and fire trucks, replace broken street lights, tear down burned-out homes, fight blight and improve city services.”

That’s the question: Pensions or services?

Corollary question: If there are no services, why even have a city government — or a state government?

123 comments

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  1. RedinSD
    RedinSD 18 July, 2013, 15:31

    oh please, oh please, oh please; let California face a FEDERAL bankruptcy judge when the house of cards comes down.

    Reply this comment
  2. jimmydeeoc
    jimmydeeoc 18 July, 2013, 15:32

    I hear roosting chickens……….

    Reply this comment
  3. Sean Morham
    Sean Morham 18 July, 2013, 15:36

    That would be too cruel. Euthanasia for 90% of the cal gov t pension recepients would be fair, would take care of the unfunded healh care cost as well. These solutions are easy, next.

    Reply this comment
  4. stolson
    stolson 18 July, 2013, 15:41

    Philadelphia might be the next big city to have to declare bankruptcy. I read where the mayor there had Wall St execs over to check out buying up assets. They are billions in red ink. Just like in Detroit, the left went too far and enough of the taxpayers were able to leave. Not a big enough tax base to cover the increasing costs. If the federal govt bails out Detroit, will they bail out Philadelphia?
    The L A county tax base is dwindling too. Not sure if it is as bad as these 2 cities yet—-more illegals in might not help.

    Reply this comment
  5. Donkey
    Donkey 18 July, 2013, 16:04

    This is only the begining. The private sector has nothing left to give to the elitist RAGWUS feeders. California, like a dying star is eating up all the wealth it can find to sustain a non-wealth creating group of feral quasi-welfare recipiants called public leeches. In five years they will have exhausted what is left of this once great state and wander to the beaches like a herd of beached Dolphins moaning that they have been cheated, but ignoring the fraud they have pulled on the private sector citizens that have gone to a more sane place to live. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  6. Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do!
    Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do! 18 July, 2013, 16:05

    We’re doomed I tell ya!

    I hope the bunker dwellers out here enjoy! The retirees will be just fine….

    Reply this comment
  7. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 17:19

    Teddy, Detroit IS doomed you progressive surrender monkey, I tell ya, you are an idiot

    Reply this comment
  8. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 17:21

    That would be too cruel. Euthanasia for 90% of the cal gov t pension recepients would be fair, would take care of the unfunded healh care cost as well
    Can we start with seesaw?

    🙂

    Reply this comment
  9. Dyspeptic
    Dyspeptic 18 July, 2013, 17:41

    “California’s pension funds insist that, no matter what, the pensions are sacrosanct; that state law trumps federal bankruptcy law.”

    Certain public sector employees who post here spew the same dubious line as if it were handed down by God almighty. I think I see some cracks developing in the sacred tablet 🙂

    “Teddy, Detroit IS doomed you progressive surrender monkey, I tell ya, you are an idiot”

    I can’t wipe the smile off my face after reading that.

    Reply this comment
  10. Sean
    Sean 18 July, 2013, 17:57

    Please God, let the PTB change their priorities and screw these tax feeding parasites to the wall.

    Reply this comment
  11. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 18:05

    Sean Morham says:
    That would be too cruel. Euthanasia for 90% of the cal gov t pension recepients would be fair, would take care of the unfunded healh care cost as well. These solutions are easy, next.
    =========================
    You are sick person!!! [email protected] off…………….

    Reply this comment
  12. John
    John 18 July, 2013, 18:07

    The public workers/unions have been so greedy, it is only just to see this happening to them, and hopefully more cities will follow.
    As a hard working tax payer, I’m tired of bring sucked dry by greedy union officials and inflated pensions!!!!

    Reply this comment
  13. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 18:13

    NTHEOC, lighten up lil buddy, you were the one posting video’s of the “Freeman” shooting it out with cops and claiming that me and OC Observer were those two guys, now someone makes a joke about troughers and you meltdown?? Ease up!

    Reply this comment
  14. Hondo
    Hondo 18 July, 2013, 18:13

    Detroit was once the greatest city on earth, according to both dems and repubs. That was in 1960. Even in the early 70’s I read old magazines where the people in Detroit crowed how life was so good. Then the MF in chief got elected.
    There are no Republicans in the food chain that destroyed Detroit. The Republicans have hurled billions of dollars at Detroit over the last 30 years hoping to turn it around. All of that money was stolen by the MFIC and the public unions.
    On CBS evening news tonight, they only gave 10 seconds to this story. The fact that Detroit looks like an atomic bomb hit it, isn’t covered. This story is a thousand times bigger than the Trayvon story.
    Hondo……..

    Reply this comment
  15. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 18:16

    The city’s murder rate is at its highest in nearly 40 years; only a third of its ambulances were in service in the first quarter of 2013; and its nearly 78,000 abandoned buildings create “additional public safety problems and reduces the quality of life in the city,” the governor noted in his letter.
    ====================
    Sounds like the ones suffering will be the people! Like all you doomers here who wish this upon California.
    Creditors are expected to mount a stiff challenge to the bankruptcy, which was filed in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Eastern District of Michigan.
    Douglas Bernstein, a bankruptcy attorney”This could run to tens-of-millions to hundreds-of-millions of dollars,” LOL!!!!!

    Reply this comment
  16. Donkey
    Donkey 18 July, 2013, 18:28

    ntheoc, I don’t know what you are smoking, but whgat is taking place in Detroit will take place right here, for the sole fact that the RAGWUS parasites refuse to do the math!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  17. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 18:32

    Donkey says:
    ntheoc, I don’t know what you are smoking, but whgat is taking place in Detroit will take place right here,
    ==================================
    They will just have to increase that PENSION TAX you pay in HB donkey…….

    Reply this comment
  18. Dyspeptic
    Dyspeptic 18 July, 2013, 18:43

    My, my, my. Some of the lefty trolls today are wrapped tighter than a cheap cigar. Zimmerman trial got you all worked up? Go have a bong hit and mellow out NTHEOC. Then get the [email protected] out of The OC. We really don’t need any more lunatics here. I bet you’d fit right in with the Occupy Oakland creeps. You could take your frustrations out on innocent motorists and shop keepers without worrying about the police interfering.

    Reply this comment
  19. Donkey
    Donkey 18 July, 2013, 18:53

    That HB pension tax doesn’t bother me ntheoc, its been around since the 1990’s. I just feel sad for you RAGWUS feeders, watching your scam come down must make you feel religious, seeking comfort from a higher being… 🙂

    Reply this comment
  20. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 19:38

    me thinks NTHEOC is worried……or maybe even sh**ing his panties over a pension cut!!!

    Some much for this pensions being untouchable in BK!!! Vallejo could have fixed ALL of its problems if they did what Detroit will do-cancel unfunded pensions.

    Reply this comment
  21. Ulysses Uhaul
    Ulysses Uhaul 18 July, 2013, 21:26

    Detroit will be fine. Democrats always find the money. They are real good at blaming Republicans for everything that they sctually did…..or didn’t…..makes no diff…

    Reply this comment
  22. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 21:48

    Dyspeptic says:
    My, my, my. Some of the lefty trolls today are wrapped tighter than a cheap cigar. Zimmerman trial got you all worked up? Go have a bong hit and mellow out NTHEOC. Then get the [email protected] out of The OC. We really don’t need any more lunatics here.
    ====================
    Sorry Dys, its not that easy to leave due to the fact I’m a public employee here in O.C! But I’m not worried,I have already set myself up with property in Lake Havasu AZ, and some investment property elsewhere. So with my 3%@50 formula it’s just a matter of time before I leave!!! Glad to see you out supporting a child killer!!!

    Reply this comment
  23. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 21:53

    Rex the Wonderdog! says:
    me thinks NTHEOC is worried……or maybe even sh**ing his panties over a pension cut!
    —————————
    LOL!!! Dude you never learn. My pension is SOLID!!!! Wasn’t the recent death of 19 firefighters in AZ,4 in Houston,1 in riverside enough for you people?? You still wish harm upon us.

    Reply this comment
  24. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 21:57

    Hey Dyspepsh!t,
    Why don’t you get back to your local sovereign citizen meeting!!

    Reply this comment
  25. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 22:00

    John says,
    As a hard working tax payer, I’m tired of bring sucked dry by greedy union officials and inflated pensions!!
    ==================================
    Is that what they tell you at your local tea party meeting!! Keep drinking the koolaid moron….

    Reply this comment
  26. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 22:03

    LOL!!! Dude you never learn. My pension is SOLID!!!!
    ==
    Yeah! Sure it is, that is what the Detroit cops said too 😉

    Reply this comment
  27. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 22:05

    Wasn’t the recent death of 19 firefighters in AZ,4 in Houston,1 in riverside enough for you people?? You still wish harm upon us
    ==
    You’re not a FF, you’re a HS educated tool that does 98% medical calls, for saving cats stuck in trees and the like 🙂

    Reply this comment
  28. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 22:18

    Rex the Wonderdog! says:
    you’re a HS educated tool that does 98% medical calls, for saving cats stuck in trees and the like –
    ================
    LMAO,I love it!!! Hey your in luck,I resuscitate dogs to!

    Reply this comment
  29. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 22:28

    Here,say it rex. S-O-L-I-D!! Solid buddy…

    Reply this comment
  30. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 18 July, 2013, 22:34

    Btw, there is no real comparison.
    Detroit is a city.
    California is a State.

    Reply this comment
  31. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 18 July, 2013, 22:52

    CA is going to default, b/c $500 billion isn’t going to come out of thin air, fact!

    Reply this comment
  32. Skippingdog
    Skippingdog 19 July, 2013, 00:02

    California isn’t going to default and it isn’t Detroit. Detroit produced vast wealth over the past century, most of which was moved elsewhere as the American car business killed itself. It will take years to sort our a Detroit bankruptcy and the city employees and retirees will make out far better than any of the other creditors involved.

    I’m always amazed at how much petty vitriol you doomers show here on CWD, although it shouldn’t be much or a surprise. Between those of you who have never actually had a job or are felons, a fair number of you no doubt hate our system and anyone who has made better life choices than you have.

    In the meantime, just remember that California is not Detroit. Hell, even LA and Orange County aren’t Detroit.

    Reply this comment
  33. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 06:16

    The RAGWUS feeders have always been monopolized by the most ignorant and feral tribal dwellers found in society. Constantly dreaming up scams to steal from the real taxpayers, they are as despicable as any pirate found in the Middle East.
    All the city, county, and state union parasitic people that thought they would have great retirements are going to be working at Walmart until they die. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  34. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 06:18

    Rex, it is way more than $500 billion for California, more than double that number!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  35. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 06:55

    Hey Skippy is bck…. the HS educated cop that thought he could hide behind a Facebook account!!!! … yes Skippy, CA is not going to default either, just like you were not going to get served!

    Reply this comment
  36. The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System
    The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System 19 July, 2013, 06:58

    Uhaul had the post of the day– Detroit will be fine—– my little doomer buddies are getting excited running circles around their cubicles! LOL

    Hurry little doomer buddies post now!!!!!!!

    Reply this comment
  37. The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System
    The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System 19 July, 2013, 07:11

    Doomers are a funny ignorant lot. With almost no significant knowledge of history, embracing early American costumes barely concealing their racists rants and dreaming of the day their bitter plans for nothing will afford them the budget to renew their subscriptions to “Modern Single-wide Magazine”….on their knees before their corporate masters embracing the very concepts that enrich the icons of Wall Street and with irony the teabaggy dolts will never see, impoverish themselves.

    I love my little buddies!

    Reply this comment
  38. Mark Landsbaum
    Mark Landsbaum 19 July, 2013, 07:26

    Powerful stuff John. Expect it to be completely ignored while the Democrats in control of California find more ways to spend tax money and more ways to over-commit tax money. Be sure to drop by if you get in the neighborhood.

    At your service in Christ . . .

    Reply this comment
  39. RSpringbok
    RSpringbok 19 July, 2013, 07:37

    Point of clarification — federal BK judge has jurisdiction over California cities and counties. Federal BK courts DO NOT have jurisdiction over state government, however. The state of California itself cannot go bankrupt; it could default on various bonds and payments. You cannot extrapolate the Detroit situation to the Calfornia state level.

    Reply this comment
  40. jo
    jo 19 July, 2013, 07:40

    What’s a
    RAGWUS?

    Reply this comment
  41. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 07:54

    Point of clarification — federal BK judge has jurisdiction over California cities and counties. Federal BK courts DO NOT have jurisdiction over state government, however. The state of California itself cannot go bankrupt; it could default on various bonds and payments. You cannot extrapolate the Detroit situation to the Calfornia state level.

    Thank you Captain Obvious. Just for YOUR clarification, a STATE does NOT BEED a federal bankruptcy court, as they are sovereign entities and are not LIABLE for ANY of their debts-including PENSION DEBTS- in any court, be it state court or federal court, a STATE simply does not have to PAY and that is the end of it. So CA could stiff the troughers in CalTURDS right now and there is not a thing the troughers could do about it, in either state court or federal court. That pesky old 11th Amendment ;0

    Reply this comment
  42. stolson
    stolson 19 July, 2013, 08:07

    Maybe Canada will come in and do business in Detroit. I am told by those in that state, that scenario is being looked into now. Big money grps are checking things out. hmmm.

    Reply this comment
  43. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 08:30

    Rex the Wonderdog! says:
    So CA could stiff the troughers in CalTURDS right now and there is not a thing the troughers could do about it, in either state court or federal court…
    =========================
    LOL….Again Captain ignorant. S-O-L-I-D!!!

    Reply this comment
  44. stolson
    stolson 19 July, 2013, 08:43

    There’s a degree of economic and individual freedom in Detroit that you won’t find in other large cities in America. Meanwhile on the east and west coast companies are being slowly strangled by excessive taxation and regulation. JP Morgan just opened a regional HQ in Detroit. Quicken loans is importing people from other cities. During the Detroit Grand Prix, Firestone announced that they would be opening an R&D facility in Detroit.

    Even at its worst, Detroit is still the second busiest freight crossing on the continent but its been bottlenecked by a single aging bridge. I think the approval for the new bridge has been one of the biggest factors bringing investment to the city.
    This (the above) is from a Michigan resident — but many feel the public sector unions and pensions are so enormous that they are a detriment to more business and higher taxes. Will see. I believe the state of CA has too many regulations which cities and towns have to abide by, making it harder to open or keep businesses. CA also is being strangled by public unions and pensions.

    Reply this comment
  45. jimmydeeoc
    jimmydeeoc 19 July, 2013, 08:58

    There’s a degree of economic and individual freedom in Detroit.

    Individual freedom, of a sort —

    15 or so years ago my friend (who lives in Oakland County) and I saw a Tiger game and then hit some of the bars on East Jefferson, between Downtown and the Belle Isle Bridge. He’s driving; not only does he blow through stop signs, he blows thru red lights (though admittedly slowing first).

    “Why bother? There’s no cops around, and even if there were they could care less..”

    Reply this comment
  46. Ulysses Uhaul
    Ulysses Uhaul 19 July, 2013, 09:03

    Some of the usual very sick minds spewing vile doomer rants….what causes such emotional outbursts? Most doomers are inland rednecks and pitifully disabled being public school baby sat!

    Reply this comment
  47. jo
    jo 19 July, 2013, 09:05

    No, seriously, what does RAGWUS stand for?

    Reply this comment
  48. BobA
    BobA 19 July, 2013, 09:07

    What’s happening with Detroit is simple and straight forward to understand. The Baroness Margaret Thatcher put it best when she said:

    “the problem with socialism is that it eventually runs out of other people’s money.”

    Detroit has run out of other people’s money and now must face reality.

    Reply this comment
  49. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 19 July, 2013, 09:16

    Frivolous lawsuits and vexatious litigants are a sorry fact of modern life. The people who file them are generally no different than those who make unsupported slip and fall claims at your local grocery store. That’s why it’s important to have the resources necessary to combat them, be that a good insurance company or some other source of coverage.

    Having gotten that out of the way, it’s fun to watch all of you doomers gloat and salivate over something that is both a local tragedy and completely unrelated to the ground truth here in California. Among other things, Detroit’s population has dropped by nearly two-thirds over the last 40-50 years and the city is not even able to collect the property taxes it is owed to the tune of about $200 million each year.

    If you can find any local, county, or state government organization in California that meets those criteria, please give us an example. Stockton and San Bernardino don’t come anywhere close.

    Reply this comment
  50. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 09:22

    BobA,
    Right now Capitalism IS the problem. It encourages the worst parts of humanity like greed and selfishness while ignoring any problems that interfere with obtaining more wealth! We are seeing it all over again as the economy is starting to rebound. Capitalism is predatory in nature and will always suck the life from the vast majority of the people to serve the tiny minority of the elite class. Keep supporting the “walmart way” and it will only get worse! Capitalism as it is practiced by the corporate powers is insane! Sorry BobA but capitalism itself is indeed the cause of most of our problems.

    Reply this comment
  51. jimmydeeoc
    jimmydeeoc 19 July, 2013, 09:22

    “Doomer rants”, U-Haul?

    Perhaps, but at the end of the day some valid points are made. Does the word “unsustainable” mean anything to you?

    Which makes me wonder….why is it Leftists are always squawking about “sustainable” development and “sustainable” environment and “sustainable” this-that-and-the-other…….except when it comes to public finances? Then they’ve never heard of the word.

    Reply this comment
  52. Sean Morham SIlver
    Sean Morham SIlver 19 July, 2013, 10:14

    Okay ntheoc, compromise, 85 percent. Thanks for the succinct eloquence directed at yours truly…off to the range for trap shooting, can t get too rusty to prepare for pension solution.

    Reply this comment
  53. Dyspeptic
    Dyspeptic 19 July, 2013, 10:23

    52 comments, wow! Is that a record for a CWD post?

    “It’s hard to see how a state court could trump a federal bankruptcy court.”

    I can easily imagine The Dear Leader finding a way to hose secured creditors and give an illegal advantage to employee pension funds. He already did it with the Auto Ind. bailout. Never underestimate the bold and flagrant lawlessness of the current regime.

    “Corollary question: If there are no services, why even have a city government — or a state government?”

    To provide employment, economic security and political power to idiot socialist parasites like NTHEOC, of course!

    Speaking of idiot parasites… NTHEOC, if Amerika is so horrible because of “Capitalism”, why don’t you move to a more congenial place like Venezuela, Cuba or Greece? Maybe you could get fellow morons like Michael Moore and Sean Penn to move to these socialist utopias with you.

    Reply this comment
  54. Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do!
    Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do! 19 July, 2013, 10:45

    Oh man! A HUGE LOL to the swarm of doomer rants! I hope you guys took your metamusal ™ today, this stress is gonna bind you up!

    Post of the morning so far? JO—- “whats a RAGWIS???

    Answer— Great question Jo! SDo far no one knows for sure but there is a doomer out here who LOVES it!

    Respond now trolls!!!! Hurry!!!!!

    Reply this comment
  55. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 10:50

    Dys,
    I’m just saying the way these corporate elite teabagging pigs are practicing capitalism today is the big reason for most of today’s problems! We saw this when the economy was at its worst and the wealthy were profiting at record pace!

    Reply this comment
  56. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 10:50

    I love it when troughers get sued and then make the claim that the claims are Frivolous !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess that will be for the 4th DCA to decide!!!!!!

    Reply this comment
  57. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 11:21

    NTHEOC, I’m just saying the way these gov leach pigs are practicing capitalism today is the big reason for most of today’s problems!

    Reply this comment
  58. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 11:22

    Speaking of idiot parasites… NTHEOC, if Amerika is so horrible because……==

    LOL!NTHEOC, that even hurt ME!

    Reply this comment
  59. Ulysses Uhaul
    Ulysses Uhaul 19 July, 2013, 12:07

    Finances are always sustainable….raise taxes. California is far from being Illinois or New York….pensions are owed….redneck up….pay your taxes and stop the two year old childish wah wah’s.

    Reply this comment
  60. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 12:11

    Listen, it’s like this. I get john seiler is just doing his job by putting out one sided non factual hit pieces. I mean the goal is to stir up debate so I dont fault him for doing his job, But the whole BK thing has nothing to do with pensions! If you just wait a little while after these cities file for BK those pesky little things called FACTS come out. Take San Bernardino for example,They tried blaming the pension system and claimed financial distress and stopped making their pension payments. The FACTS came out and their entire pension obligation was only 1.9 million out of a 40 million budget!!!! Pensions clearly were not the driving factor. Same goes for stockton and so on. “”Figures don’t lie but liars figure””…..And where is stanford now? how about those huge returns for CALPERS!!!!!!hah….

    Reply this comment
  61. jimmydeeoc
    jimmydeeoc 19 July, 2013, 12:59

    “Finances are always sustainable….raise taxes.”

    You should run for office, UHaul. This state has enough low information voters to wisk you into office in a heartbeat.

    Don’t know how much fun it will be though. Presiding over crumbling empires can be aggravating – be they Roman, British, or whathaveyou.

    Reply this comment
  62. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 19 July, 2013, 13:12

    You folks keep forgetting that Chapter 9 is completely different from the rest of the Bankruptcy Code. Under existing law, the workout plan ultimately approved by a bankruptcy court for a Chapter 9 filing cannot contain any provisions that violate the existing laws or regulations in the state where the bankruptcy protections are sought. In California, and probably Michigan, that would mean the judge would not have the power to cram down cuts to pension payments mandated by both state law and the state constitutions. Obviously, it is precisely this limitation that the bond insurers are trying to fight in both San Bernardino and Stockton, but it’s not at all clear that any attempt by a bankruptcy judge to alter state law would withstand a 10th Amendment challenge.

    Pay particular attention to the “Unique Feathers of Chapter 9” on page 20 of the attached document.

    http://www.afgi.org/resources/Bankruptcy_Primer.pdf

    Reply this comment
  63. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 14:06

    Skippy, the GED idiot cop with more of his “legal analysis”…..this is what got you into trouble last time champ……………………… you’re good at ‘cut and paste” bad at legal analysis.

    Reply this comment
  64. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 19 July, 2013, 14:08

    BTW for our idiot wannabe cops with a GED education, state laws are subservient to federal laws under the Supremacy Clause, and even if they weren’t Detroit is a city, not a state…Oh my, the ignorant love to be schooled 😉

    Reply this comment
  65. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 19 July, 2013, 14:35

    What’s your Bar number again, Rex?

    Reply this comment
  66. Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do!
    Steele, Ted, When only the very best will do! 19 July, 2013, 14:51

    Poor Rex the Poodle not only never sat for the bar, but has no law degree…..only an AA in Google 101…….

    hurry Adelanto troll type now!!

    Reply this comment
  67. Ulysses Uhaul
    Ulysses Uhaul 19 July, 2013, 15:42

    Jimmy is the new doomer posting from his dungeon in his Kohls imported skivvies!

    Ulysses is too busy to run for office….moving Cavers to redneck utopias is quite lucrative,

    Reply this comment
  68. jimmydeeoc
    jimmydeeoc 19 July, 2013, 15:55

    Uhaul. Always with the ad hominem attacks.

    And nothing else.

    Reply this comment
  69. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 16:38

    Skdog is the epitome of the word “hypocrite!” “Frivolous lawsuits and vexatious litigants are a sorry fact of modern life. The people who file them are generally no different than those who make unsupported slip and fall claims at your local grocery store. That’s why it’s important to have the resources necessary to combat them, be that a good insurance company or some other source of coverage.”

    His LE RAGWUS cabal has over an 80% disability payout for its pensioners, a number that would lead any industry into BK.

    Skdog’s “insurance company” is the private sector taxpayers, so he could care less how dishonest his RAGWUS pals are when it comes to filing phony claims. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  70. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 16:39

    UU = RAGWUS parasite!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  71. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 16:40

    Stop ganging up on Rex you RAGWUS feeders, you are all acting like Tryvon flash and bashers!!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  72. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 16:46

    Jo asked: “What’s a RAGWUS?”
    RAGWUS = Robert Rizzo And Governemnt Worker Union Scam. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  73. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 19 July, 2013, 19:10

    So, now that Prop 8 has been overturned, Donkey, when are you and Rex going to announce your engagement? Stepping up to defend Rex’s virtue is really cute!

    Reply this comment
  74. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 20:18

    Wow Donkey, you must have a wonderful relationship with your Gov’t employee leech of a son,huh.

    Reply this comment
  75. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 20:22

    Donkey says,
    Skdog’s “insurance company” is the private sector taxpayers, so he could care less how dishonest his RAGWUS pals are when it comes to filing phony claims.
    ====================
    30 plus years as a career police officer or firefighter does take a huge toll on ones body! Keep raising the retirement age and the number will be 100% disability!! I already have a file of numerous injuries that i have suffered and all the specialist and doctors agree it is job related. Sorry Donkey…

    Reply this comment
  76. NTHEOC
    NTHEOC 19 July, 2013, 20:24

    SkippingDog says:
    So, now that Prop 8 has been overturned, Donkey, when are you and Rex going to announce your engagement?
    =======================
    They are happy just fornicating!!!

    Reply this comment
  77. The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System
    The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System 19 July, 2013, 21:14

    LOL Great job Jo! We love it when you make that huge ignoramus tell us for the 100th time what Ragwass means! He has no idea that we play him like a banjo!

    Tell us again about the ragwass Lenny…omg this is too easy!

    Spinning em up, cutting em down! ™!

    Reply this comment
  78. The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System
    The Africanized Swarm of Ted Steele System 19 July, 2013, 21:17

    Uhaul– lmao– you’re getting under Duncey’s thin skin! Might be time to pack and ship? Can he return the truck in Adelanto?

    Reply this comment
  79. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 22:02

    Teddy Steals, the childish acts and thoughts that cause you RAGWUS feeders to prance around always puts a smile on my face. The plight of you feral parasites is lost in your own ignorance. You think you have insulated yourselves from your own stupidity, even as Detroit is being plowed under. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  80. Donkey
    Donkey 19 July, 2013, 22:11

    Ntheoc, you are lying to yourself, a sign of denseness and mental-incapacity. FF’s rarely even work, if I had my way they would be pulling weeds and mowing the lawns in the city parks. At least the police officers do a little to justify their phony claims. What is funny is that your statement,”30 plus years as a career police officer or firefighter does take a huge toll on ones body! Keep raising the retirement age and the number will be 100% disability!! I already have a file of numerous injuries that i have suffered and all the specialist and doctors agree it is job related. Sorry Donkey” Getting the union quack to tally the nicks on your legs from too close of a shave is fraud little one!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  81. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 20 July, 2013, 01:15

    Skippy, how did that hiding behind Facebook work out for you lil buddy??????? I heard your Gal pal looked like a GHOST when the process server handed over the complaint, looks like you could run but couldn’t hifde………oh, and you were too scared to accept serervice on your own an dhid out in your room…Hahahahahaha……….Oh well, the case goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply this comment
  82. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 05:49

    SKdog, you write as if you are a homophobe, along with your pals ntheoc, and Steals. It is the nature of most haters to have a predilection for what they dislike publicly.

    Skdog, you do know that your propensity of being a hypocrite is in the words you write, or should I write, cut and paste? But you actually are much closer to a con artist!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  83. S Moderation Douglas
    S Moderation Douglas 20 July, 2013, 07:37

    Meanwhile, back to the topic, I don’t see ANY proposals to “slash pensions by 90%”

    Worst case proposals I have seen is stopping COLAs for present retirees, freezing pension accumulation going forward for present employees, and switching to 401(k) retirements. Plus changes in retiree health benefits.

    ALL subject to future legal decisions and/or negotiations.

    A far cry from SLASHING PENSIONS BY NINTY PERCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That glass is still at least half full.

    Reply this comment
  84. S Moderation Douglas
    S Moderation Douglas 20 July, 2013, 07:40

    Very catchy headline, though.

    Should generate a lot of knee jerk reaction, he said, with 20/20 hindsight.

    Reply this comment
  85. Rex the Wonderdog!
    Rex the Wonderdog! 20 July, 2013, 07:51

    SKdog, you write as if you are a homophobe,
    ===

    LOL …Donk, he is just a little punk with a big mouth, that sometimes gets slapped shut!

    Reply this comment
  86. The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm)
    The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm) 20 July, 2013, 07:57

    Still not clear about what ragwes means??

    Anyway—- I think the doomers thought this thread would be more satisfying for them!

    Reply this comment
  87. Queeg
    Queeg 20 July, 2013, 08:48

    The truth is out! Someone has to pin the extremist tail on Donkey or Poodle….perhaps Dys has the guts to do the heavy back ending. Bobo? Nah….to urban for rear end work! AH! Use Hondo with his buddy Rizzo.

    Reply this comment
  88. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 11:41

    We can add Steal’s Queegy to the list of homophobes!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  89. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 12:45

    Let’s see, Rex. You now owe over $20,000 in legal fees to my lawyer and at least that much to Freedom Communications for your frivolous litigation attempts. If you decide to wage an appeal, you’ll have to do a lot of work yourself and you’ll undoubtedly lose, so there’s another $20,000 or so in fees you’ll owe.

    On top of that, you don’t appear to have any form of gainful employment and you’ve told the courts you have no assets, so those judgements will just grow with age like an interest bearing account. When and if you ever inherit any property from your dear old mom, it will quickly be attached to pay off your outstanding legal judgements.

    On top of all that, you’ve still got your own legal troubles to deal with. Given the totality of those circumstances, it hardly makes sense for a LOSER like yourself to keep puffing out your chest with increasingly fatuous claims of superiority over anyone. Through your own efforts, you’ve managed to place yourself and your life firmly into the dregs of our society. I’m sure your mom is proud of you.

    Reply this comment
  90. The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm)
    The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm) 20 July, 2013, 12:59

    Skipping Dog—

    Post of the day—— that was a fun read!

    The poor poodle!

    And Queeg—— I forgot about Bobo! Thanks for the mention, he is one class act doomer!!!

    Reply this comment
  91. Queeg
    Queeg 20 July, 2013, 14:05

    Shocked at Skippy’s revelations….i always thought Poodle was a redneck play toy planted by CWD to accentuate the aberrant articles that loons on CWD foam at the mouth over….

    Reply this comment
  92. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 17:19

    Skdog posts an inordinate number of lies, but right on par with his job discription. I find it hard to believe anything he writes simply because he finds no falult with the two men that fired 25 rounds at a 5’2″ 110 lb teenage girl hitting her 15 times, with five rounds in her back as she lay dying on the ground. Ashley MacDonald was murdered, Skdog finds nothing wrong with men killing teenage girls, I would never trust any person with a character like his, nor anyone tha agrees with his view. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  93. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 19:29

    I’ve posted no lies, Donkey. Merely because I agree with the District Attorney, Huntington Beach Police Department, and even the Orange County Register on the outcome of the MacDonald incident – and you don’t – doesn’t detract from my credibility in any way. You are the outlier in that particular case.

    Reply this comment
  94. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 19:33

    Queegy Steals, haven’t you heard, all the extremists work for the RAGWUS!!

    It seems that Zimmerman has changed his name to Ben Ghazi, now the news media and Obamaites will no longer know he ever existed!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  95. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 19:35

    Don’t agree with on Ashley, and no real man ever would agree!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  96. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 19:38

    Again, Donkey, you appear to be the clear outlier in this matter. You need to stop reading all of your anti-police blogs for a day or two.

    Reply this comment
  97. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 19:49

    Rather than rehash it for the other people who comment here, Donkey, I’ve attached a link to the Orange County Register editorial that goes through the facts of the MacDonald incident. It’s a far more accurate account than you are ever likely to provide, just in case people want to know what really happened when you keep bringing up the case.

    http://www.ocregister.com/news/knife-198243-officers-people.html

    Reply this comment
  98. Donkey
    Donkey 20 July, 2013, 19:50

    Skdog, the individual is the least able to defend their person against the state. The cabal you make claim to has resources, power, weapons, and a propaganda control center that rivals anything the Soviet Union could have created. Justice for the individual that is murdered by costume wearing Preatorians are murdered in direct violation of the Constitution, and yea I am an outlier for believing in the Bill of Rights!!! 🙂

    Reply this comment
  99. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 19:51

    No, Donkey. You are an outlier for not accepting the verifiable facts of the case.

    Reply this comment
  100. S Moderation Douglas
    S Moderation Douglas 20 July, 2013, 19:57

    Looks like Orr isn’t even THINKING about “slashing pensions” by anywhere near 90%. 

    Where did that idea come from?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/detroit-emergency-manager-orders-probe-of-benefit-programs-1-.html

    For those covered by a plan, benefits would be frozen and some would be switched to 401(k)-like defined-contribution savings accounts, under Orr’s proposal. He hasn’t determined how much to take from future or current retirees, pending an actuarial analysis. Automatic cost-of-living raises would be eliminated, and worker contributions into the system would rise.

    Reply this comment
  101. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 20 July, 2013, 20:17

    Facts never get in the way of an incendiary CWD headline.

    Reply this comment
  102. The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm)
    The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm) 20 July, 2013, 20:45

    Duncey— Like about 100 times before you’ve been owned out here again——–at this point it’s just sad little buddy. SD knows the facts amigo— you seem to be completely unburdened by reality.

    Reply this comment
  103. Donkey
    Donkey 21 July, 2013, 10:14

    Skdog says, “No, Donkey. You are an outlier for not accepting the verifiable facts of the case.”

    Your use of the word “verifiable” is itself a lie Skdog. The rational man does not kill women. The rational man protects women at all costs, especially younger girls from harm. You take the phony investigation into a childs death and then put it into print and call it the truth, but any rational mind knows is a complete lie, you live off the “official record” no matter how distorted or false. Parker and Randle changed their stories many times before it became the officail record, the cops that murdered Kelly Thomas watched recorded video and colluded among themselves before arriving at their official lies. You live in a world of lies, I don’t, Ashley was unjustly murdered, in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  104. Donkey
    Donkey 21 July, 2013, 10:15

    Teddy Steals, the truth will hit you the hardest, ignorance in your case is bliss. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  105. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 21 July, 2013, 11:04

    As noted in the OC Register article I attached about the MacDonald matter, there are still people who believe Elvis is alive and that 9/11 was a plot by the U.S. government. You are clearly a member of that subgroup, so there’s no rational evidence that will ever persuade you of the truth.

    Enjoy your tinfoil hat, Donkey. It will keep the radio waves out of your addled brain.

    Reply this comment
  106. The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm)
    The Modified Ted Steele Methodologies (tm) 21 July, 2013, 12:34

    SD— What a delightful laugh again this am! The poor deadbeat troll!!!

    Reply this comment
  107. Donkey
    Donkey 21 July, 2013, 16:24

    As Detriot falls prey to your stupidity of thought Skdog, you make claim that I am wearing a “tinfoil hat?”

    The central problem here, as in practically everything else, is the fact that the State (institutionalized coercion in the hands of self-serving RAGWUS feeders) is at war with private sector citizens. And America’s society is not the first in which a corrupt government Power Elite has used taxpayers money in an attempt to benefit from the labor of others.

    The LE cabal is corrupt, city councils, county boards, state and federal legislatures are filled with taxpayer funded RAGWUS feeders, all seeking to live off the labor of a wealth producer, which makes them all corrupt.

    As a nation we have strayed too far from the priciples of our Constitution, it shows in our prisons, our schools, and in cities like Detroit, Stockton, and most every other liberal enclave. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  108. Donkey
    Donkey 21 July, 2013, 16:28

    Teddy Steals, at least wipe your mouth after coddling the Skdog. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  109. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 21 July, 2013, 17:25

    Detroit’s problems were at least 60 or more years in the making, Donkey, and there’s plenty of blame to go around in that city. Beginning with the fact that Detroit and, in particular, the auto industry failed to recognize and adapt to the competition from foreign car imports, many of which were produced by state subsidized industrial groups in Germany, Japan, and elsewhere. The auto industry also began moving their operations to “right to work” states where they could reduce their labor costs and, many times, receive highly favorable tax incentives and even free property for their moves.

    Once the Rust Belt decline really began to roll, Detroit suffered further from the reduction of non-auto industries that were once located there, including steel, plastics, and similar manufacturing products.

    Over the last half-century or so, Detroit has lost 2/3 of its population. Many who made their fortunes there have taken their money and moved to places with a better climate or quality of life, leaving only the poorest people in the city. Urban areas with a high concentration of economically disadvantaged people invariable need a greater level of government services, and economically depressed cities are often high crime areas.

    I have no idea what the solution is for Detroit, but your claim that all of Detroit’s problems have been caused by their public employees, unions, or pensions defies the basic facts of the past half century and provides just one more example of the ridiculous “magical thinking” you apply to each and every social problem.

    Reply this comment
  110. Donkey
    Donkey 21 July, 2013, 21:05

    Up until the early 1970’s Detroit was booming, even while the demonrats were eating like pigs off the labor of the auto workers. Then the demonrats made it too expensive to make a profit in Detroit. People and business started to move on to better living conditions while the RAGWUS feeders continued with their unchanging ways, just like California. Your uncle Bill Clinton sent vendors packing to Mexico and China and at the same time brought in millions of poor people to fill the schools and welfare rolls from those nations.

    Most of Detroit’s collapse is the fault of politicains, but the politicians were bought and paid for by the same type of RAGWUS cabal that operates in California. You can’t spend more than you make Skdog, math is not “magical.” Your pension, as currently structured, is doomed. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  111. Ulysses Uhaul
    Ulysses Uhaul 21 July, 2013, 23:46

    Teddy is the best at handling crusteee trolls on CWD…a true gentleman and a happy exterminator….cherish him….support him…his work is not complete!

    Reply this comment
  112. Steve Mehlman
    Steve Mehlman 22 July, 2013, 09:44

    FYI: The average public employee pension in the United States pays $19,000 a year.

    Reply this comment
  113. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 22 July, 2013, 09:58

    Up until the early 70’s, Detroit was making approximately $1 billion each year on defense contracts for the VN war AND making cars at the same time. The shutdown of the VN war and the first oil embargo/crisis is what punched a hole in the big-three, most particularly Chrysler at that time. That’s why the federal government had to bail out Chrysler. Remember Lee Iacocca?

    Reply this comment
  114. Donkey
    Donkey 22 July, 2013, 10:53

    So Skdog, are you telling me that the Detroit RAGWUS feeders changed their greedy ways when tax income headed south? It is the cost of the feeders that has sent Detroit into the toilet, not the business that they drove off or the taxpayers that left. The RAGWUS has no reason or ability to adapt because the people that inhabit its world live in a vaccum, unable to see the future and change, just a typical government bureaucracy.

    Mehlman, stop with the BS lying about the average RAGWUS feeders pension. The total cost is all that matters, and the total cost is not sustainable. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  115. SkippingDog
    SkippingDog 22 July, 2013, 11:46

    The need for government services of all types increases with an economic decline, Donkey. Even someone as dense as you knows that. I have no doubt that Detroit could and should have made some different decisions in the last half-century, as should the predominately Republican Governors of that state during the same period.

    Detroit is a trailing indicator of our old Rust Belt manufacturing economy, most of which was off-shored because of Republican tax policies in the voodoo economics craze brought upon us by Ronald Reagan and his minions. It has been kept afloat longer than the places producing steel, refrigerators, washing machines and other appliances because the auto companies are headquartered there.

    If you truly care about middle class jobs and renewed manufacturing in our country, you would support significant import tariffs on manufactured goods of all types, including automobiles, trucks, and major appliances. You would also oppose any further efforts to expand our international trade agreements that effectively open our borders to manufactured merchandise produced by slave labor in places like China. You won’t do that though, because the corporate masters you shill for make their profits from precisely that unbalanced trade which has proven so detrimental to American workers.

    Reply this comment
  116. Donkey
    Donkey 22 July, 2013, 15:09

    Skdog, your commie/Maxist drivel is the result of pure BS. The RAGWUS feeders of Detroit ran business out of their city, helped by the county and state also.

    It was NAFTA/CAFTA/MFNTS all signed by your Uncle Bill that stripped the nation of its industry. Add your Eco-freak friends finished them off, just like is about to happen in California. Though California can still live off its fat for a few more years there will come a point where even the wealthy enclaves will begin the same decline as Detroit. All you have to do is look at the drainage control fencing, school fencing, road upkeep, and the rust at every intersection, Detroit is coming to us slowly but surely. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  117. skippingdog
    skippingdog 22 July, 2013, 17:19

    Donkey, you are truly clueless.

    Reply this comment
    • Donkey
      Donkey 24 July, 2013, 02:02

      Skdog, I ran my own company for 25 years; you sucked on the RAGWUS teet, never having to earn a penny to stay afloat, you are the one that is “clueless” my trough feeding friend. 🙂

      Reply this comment
  118. Skippingdog
    Skippingdog 24 July, 2013, 11:06

    You milked the government contracts teat for 25 years, Donkey. That doesn’t give you any particular insight on the rest of our society.

    Reply this comment
  119. Donkey
    Donkey 25 July, 2013, 05:46

    Like I said before Skdog, you tell a lot of lies. My company made custom areospace parts. I was a vendor for Boeing, M/D, Hughes, and others and I was less expensive than the competition. Though many of the companies I supplied with product had military connections, I supplied for the civilian side of their business.

    Having a bottom line gives me much more “insight” than any RAGWUS feeder could ever have Skdog. You never cared how the money you recieved was generated or doled out, you never earned it, or even knew how. If taxation were to end today feeders would all starve to death, folks in the private sector that work for a living would be just fine. 🙂

    Reply this comment
  120. Ellen Riddles
    Ellen Riddles 29 July, 2013, 04:17

    It would definitely sound unfair for the creditors and the pensioners because they won’t get paid if the City files for bankruptcy. It will also somehow spark a bad reaction to other cities who might opt for similar strategies.

    Reply this comment
  121. Ted Steele, Janitor
    Ted Steele, Janitor 3 August, 2013, 18:53

    LOL Duncey—- angry 25 year milker of gov contracts! LMAO

    Reply this comment

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